17 replies to this topic

[shengchieh]

It's very confusing to study on which distribution does what. So I'm making a chart which will eventually go on the wiki. Take a look at

http://shengchieh.50...m/overview.html

Beside

- status as of
- version
- ethernet
- wireless
- camera
- acpi
- installation type
- need to partition before installtion
- other comments

What other columns should I have. Also, if you have any comment about the columns I already have, please comment.

Do >>>NOT<<< tell me what works for a certain distribution. I am NOT interested in filling the chart - you folks will do that - just interested in designing the
table so that it'll go on the wiki, and then, everybody can fill in. So comment on just the chart features.

Sheng-Chieh

[klopus]

- support OTOB for 1-2GB (for example, Mandriva One LiveCD default kernel supports only 880MB)
- kernel version
- boot speed
- memory taken by the install
- disk space taken by the install
- graphics - resolution and 3D support
- window scaling for 800x480
- default desktop/window manager

All above assumes non modified fresh install.

Edited by klopus, 24 March 2008 - 04:10 AM.

[shengchieh]

Thank for replying. Nice inputs.

Dumb question: what is OTOB?

Sheng-Chieh

[klopus]

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Dumb question: what is OTOB?

OuT Of the Box :)

[shengchieh]

Quote

- support OTOB for 1-2GB (for example, Mandriva One LiveCD default kernel supports only 880MB)
- kernel version
- boot speed
- memory taken by the install
- disk space taken by the install
- graphics - resolution and 3D support
- window scaling for 800x480
- default desktop/window manager
All above assumes non modified fresh install.

I have started to add these stuffs (nice list). People (like you) will be adding these stuffs, but not all are easy to find. So I need some documentation
on how to find them. So far I have

-* Please the status date if you modify anything.
- Leave a question mark if you can't figure out what to say.
- ACPI = Advanced Configuration and Power Interface. Test Fn-F1, Fn-F2,...,Fn-F9.
- Bootup Time = time between starting the machine to then login screen. Turn off auto-login if needed.
- To find the kernel version, type "uname -a".
- To find the disk usage, type "df".

So
1) how do one find the memory usage?
2) how do one find about the graphics support?
3) how can one tell if the distro has 800x480 window scaling?

Sheng-Chieh

[mkrishnan]

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1) how do one find the memory usage?
2) how do one find about the graphics support?
3) how can one tell if the distro has 800x480 window scaling?

1) I'm not sure what a good memory footprint is... perhaps the amount of free memory "free" reports on a 512MB Eee (or other specified RAM), if you boot up the clean installation, and the very first thing you do is open terminal and type in free?

3) I'm not sure if this is what is meant, but it would be good to know if the OS will come up in 800x480 automatically or will come up in some other resolution (640x480) and need modifications.

Also:

- It's mainly historical, since Xandros is probably the only distribution that has this issue, but support for >1GB of RAM should probably be on the list.

- Going along with the OOTB idea... It might be nice if some of these boxes had, rather than just yes/no, perhaps three settings, e.g. like "-" or NA (not available), "S" (standard), and "O" (optional, meaning it can be done but does not work OOTB).

- For ACPI... perhaps split this into: (a) support for onscreen displays for the Fn keys, (b) functional power management (suspend, power off, etc), © support for overclocking, and (d) fan control, although probably no distro would have (d) as a standard.

- SDHC reader support (I think there may be some that have issues with this, although the majors all seem to handle the SDHC as well as it can be handled?) -- this is support for it as a hotplug / removable device, not as a boot device (since if you boot off the SDHC, it's provided to the OS on a platter by BIOS).

[shengchieh]

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I'm not sure if this is what is meant, but it would be good to know if the OS will come up in 800x480 automatically or will come up in some other resolution (640x480) and need modifications.

I also think linpus means this. But how do I figure this out (so I can document this). I noted /etc/X11/xorg.conf has alot of display modes. but how can
I tell which one the eee is using?

Quote

- For ACPI... perhaps split this into: (a) support for onscreen displays for the Fn keys, (b) functional power management (suspend, power off, etc), © support for overclocking, and (d) fan control, although probably no distro would have (d) as a standard.

How do I see b) c) and d)? Or I don't have this for MiniMe?

Sheng-Chieh

[shengchieh]

I updated the chart. Still at the same place:

http://shengchieh.50...m/overview.html

What is missing is direction for gathering more ACPI informations and window display usage. I lumped USB and SD infos in "other comments"
since not all distributions have those issues.

Any more comments before I throw this on the eee wiki?

Sheng-Chieh

[mkrishnan]

Quote

Quote

- For ACPI... perhaps split this into: (a) support for onscreen displays for the Fn keys, (b) functional power management (suspend, power off, etc), © support for overclocking, and (d) fan control, although probably no distro would have (d) as a standard.

How do I see b) c) and d)? Or I don't have this for MiniMe?

(b) is just observation as to whether these things work properly or not, so you'd need a user of the distro to comment on it. ©-(d) right now only happen if you use the special kernel module; I guess you know they're happening because you have a /proc/eee folder...

[randomT]

I don't think that startup-time is really relevant, it depends on 1000 things which are distribution-independent.
Which filesystem do you use? which services do you load? etc...
Also, what good is it to measure till the login screen when you can login at some distributions and have an instant desktop while others start loading stuff again.

With regards to memory, it also doesn't make much sense to measure memory "footprint". If an application uses memory, it's because it needs memory. You want it to use that memory because it's faster that way. Unused memory is wasted memory.
On the other hand, if you don't have enough memory to cater your needs, you might want to choose different apps.
again, it's distribution independent.

Same goes actually, for the disk-space usage. It's the applications, not the distribution.

[klopus]

ramdomT, I totally disagree. All this footprint data and especially boot time are extremely important main differentiation. We're talking distro's default out of the box (OTOB), just after install, experience here. Not a lot of people, even those posting on these forums and interested in trying various distros, have enough inclination, knowledge, background and simply time to tinker with distros. A lot of people just take things as is and judge them accordingly. And I bet very few people, even Linux experts, even after long tries can reproduce 10 second stock Xandros boot time on Ubuntu or Mandriva KDE install that boots in 90 seconds.

[randomT]

OK, if you want to compare out of the box only, you can make such comparisons, but then you should restrict yourself to comparing distributions which where tailored or customized for the eee.
However, the resulting values still won't tell you much. I agree, many ppl like to judge on the first impression, but frankly, that's just a bad judgement. If solution a runs mediocre and solution b is horrible (ootb) but with with a little bit of tewaking it's perfect, I think solution b is preferable. And honestly, I don't know why so many people complain that they have to adjust some settings after the initial OS installation, windows is not usable at all ootb.

First, it's not very reasonable to run a distribution out of the box.
It's VERY likely that you have some services running which you don't need at all, while it's quite possible that some other stuff you'd like to have is missing. Same goes for programs.
Also, do you have the programs preleoded at startup or are they loaded when you actually need them? It only makes a difference in terms of _when_ you have to wait, but it's very hard to measure.

Second, some distributions give many different installation options, some give none. Some install what they think you need, some ask for what you need. Of course, you can compare all distributions installed with default options, but it makes no sense to install everything default, especially on something like the eee.
And btw, also my default xandros does not start in 10 seconds, more like 30.

Anyways, for what it's worth, here are my settings:

Distribution: Gentoo
Kernel: 2.6.24-r4-gentoo + eee-patches
all hardware works (3d+webcam is not yet tested)
Filesystem: reiserfs
Install type: default install following the gentoo handbook. Compiled on another machine and then copied to the eee.
Need to partition before installation: is part of the installation process.
Window Manager: Fluxbox
Ease of Use: very easy - easy
Ease of Administration: advanced - difficult
Bootup speed: ca.50 sec (the dongest delay is due to mounting the disk and bringing up the network+ip)
Total size of install: 1.4gig
Total memory used after Fluxbox is started: 73MB
Time needed for installation+configuration: a weekend
installed programs:
a bunch of system tools + all needed hardware drivers
vim+gvim+cream (text-editing)
kile (latex)
elinks (webbrowser)
konqueror (web+filebrowser)
krusader (filebrowser)
sylpeed-claws (mail)
mplayer + vlc + xine (videoplayer)
irssi (irc-client)
Xorg 1.4 (x-server)
fluxbox (window manager)
urxvt (terminal)
skype
amarok

[klopus]

I mean, look, all this Linux distro rivalry frankly is a huge stinky scam that just confuses noob people. Majr distros are all the same with key components that have nothing to do with the distro itself - same kernel, same KDE or Gnome, same key applications, etc. Even the mother distro which did much of the leg work is different from the what ppl think is a famous distro - Debian for Ubuntu, Mandriva for PCLinuxOS, RedHat for Fedora, Slackware for SuSe etc. Differences are if you think are minor and laughable - number and nomenclature of apps OTOB, packaging system (that actually comes from mother distro), maybe some specific minor graphical config tools here and there, depth and speed of repositories (often coming from mother distro like Debian), level of support on forums and last but not least level of shameless self advertisement that somehow adds to the sense of uniqueness (Ubuntu is a primary example) . Inreality it's extremely easy to make Mandriva out of Ubuntu of visa versa or show somebody SuSe and they would think it's Fedora.

So all this goes to the point that main distro differentiation is how it's OTOB on Eee. This comes as quantitative (footprint) and qualitative - does it support Eee hardware OTOB or one has to muck around, search all over and spend time trying to make basic things like WiFi and ACPI work, basic dialogs to scale to 800x480 and to repeat all that cra*p all over again when kernel or something else gets updated. In qualitative category Mandriva 2008.1 is a king since it comes officially with Eee support out of the box and it's guaranteed not to break on upstream updates. But like Ubuntu it's a resource and boot time pig right out of the box.

Edited by klopus, 13 April 2008 - 08:09 PM.

[randomT]

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Inreality it's extremely easy to make Mandriva out of Ubuntu of visa versa or show somebody SuSe and they would think it's Fedora.

There are differences which can be quite substantial. However, you are right that these differences are mainly under the hood so it's quite easy to make some distribution look like another. However, essentialy I think we agree. The differences are confusing for new users. The point is however, that how well your system is running depends on what you make of it, not on the distribution. Thus I would say to whoever doesn't know which one to choose: take whichever seems to be the nicest for you. Whether it's the online-community, or the default applications or method of installing additional software or the default colours...
That's why I say it's pointless to compare them out of the box.

Quote

In qualitative category Mandriva 2008.1 is a king since it comes officially with Eee support out of the box and it's guaranteed not to break on upstream updates. But like Ubuntu it's a resource and boot time pig right out of the box.

That's exactly my point, if you want to have a good system, you either install a minimal distribution and add everything you need, or you install a big distribution and delete everything you don't need. I know that Mandriva claims to be 100% compatible but for example the dialog scaling is not too well implemented, the Mandriva-menu takes up half the screen und the system is (ootb) bloated with applications you can't use on the eee. Is it easy to install? yes. Is it perfect for the eee? no.
For that you'd need a distribution which was made for the eee and that is only the default xandros.

[klopus]

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For that you'd need a distribution which was made for the eee and that is only the default xandros.

Totally and fully agree with you here!

[dd99]

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For that you'd need a distribution which was made for the eee and that is only the default xandros.

Totally and fully agree with you here!

Yeah, me too.
:)
I'll just add a few remarks to say that (in principle) it's easier to remove packages that you don't need from a full-featured distribution like Mandriva, Ubuntu, SuSE, Fedora, etc, than to add packages to a mini-distribution - specially if you have to manually compile these packages from source.
The disk space problem will become much less relevant as soon as the 900 is out, with 20GB vs. 4GB SSD which is what most of us have now. And most dialog windows that right now we have to alt-move around, will fit on the 1024x600 screen.
Finally, my everything-including-the-kitchen-sink Mandriva 2008.1 (I even have KDevelop on it, for heaven's sake!) compressed is 2GB and runs fine from my 8GB SDHC card, and Gaijin has reported that KDE4 + Compiz runs perfectly well on his non-overclocked 701.
My point is we shouldn't worry so much about cutting down on features of Linux distributions as the eeePC will work fine even with the most full-featured ones, with more or less tinkering required depending on the distribution chosen.

[shengchieh]

Quote

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For that you'd need a distribution which was made for the eee and that is only the default xandros.

Totally and fully agree with you here!

And I (as a long-time user of xandros, but now using Mandriva and MiniMe) should clarify...

ASUS's xandros is a lightweight version of xandros. Compared with the stardard version of xandros, it's missing

- no multi-user
- no screensaver
- no save session
- has /home/user by default instead of /user/[username]
- no large repositories (like debian)
- etc

If you want to see what standard xandros looks like, download xandros 4 OCE from http;//geekconnection.org . Unfortunately,
it's an install CD, not a live CD. In other words, ASUS really trimmed xandros for the eee.

Sheng-Chieh

[klopus]

Yeah, everything has its price. It's small, trim, light Eee tailored and boots fast but limited in features.